As a cross-cultural production — shot in Canada, produced by Hollywood, filled with Japanese actors — interpretation was key.
But when the volume is so big and comprehensive, like Shōgun, it becomes producing.
What was really great about Shōgun is that Hiro and I were able to see the entire process.
It’s a work of translation not just into Japanese but into Sengoku-period Japan.
In previous interviews for which you’ve interpreted, the actors talked about how different they found the Shōgun set compared to Japanese productions.
But I think one of the important things, what Eita said, is that actors are more included in the process [on Shōgun].
Can you think of a specific time where the translation process was especially nuanced?
Have you seen the memes where the whole joke is that Mariko is interpreting really asymmetrically?
The drama Shōgun is about fate. About the inevitability of war, chaos, statecraft, cross-cultural differences, and returning my ship, the Erasmus. Above all, though, it’s a communication show. Many things cannot be expressed clearly because of Sengoku court etiquette and gender politics of the period. Even if two people speak the same language, you will never truly know them, but you still need to cooperate in order to achieve your shared objective.
In many respects, the creation of Shōgun reflected these ideas. Interpretation was crucial because this was a cross-cultural production starring Japanese actors and produced by Hollywood in Canada. Then Eriko Miyagawa appears. In order to make sure the show was true to period Edo but still relevant to contemporary Tokyo, the producer collaborated closely with lead actor and producer Hiroyuki Sanada. She wore many hats and was gracious enough to answer all our questions about how Shōgun was interpreted from English book to Sengoku Japan and back. She did this by consulting on translating English scripts for Japanese actors, translating the show’s press kit, and interpreting for us during multiple interviews with Vulture.
Please begin by briefly outlining some of your responsibilities as a producer on Shōgun and how they were different from previous projects where you were merely a consultant.
I believe the volume is the primary distinction. I have undertaken numerous endeavors. I began my career as an interpreter on set. Kill Bill was my first employer. Since then, I’ve worked on American shows that have Japanese influences primarily. However, it turns into production when the volume is that large and all-encompassing, as Shōgun. Hiro and I were brought on from the beginning as producers for this show. We were allowed to participate in every step of the process and offer our opinions on every facet of the program. That was a very different thing.
On other shows, an American producer is frequently in charge of the production. They sort of put it together. I’ll consult with this department, or we need this portion translated. The fact that Hiro and I could witness the complete procedure made Shōgun a truly amazing experience. It didn’t seem like anything was missing.
Describe the procedure by which scripts are translated into the different languages used by the show.
To ensure that the final product feels genuine to native Japanese viewers, it had to go through several stages of refinement. James Clavell’s book was undoubtedly the result of extensive research and a deep love of Japanese culture. After going through multiple rounds of consultations, the scripts were refined to perfection. After that, the script is written by American writers. Next, it is sent to a group of Tokyo-based Japanese translators. I’m checking in at a different stage than Hiro. To ensure that it is appropriate for the era and sounds like something a human would say, it is then sent to Japanese dialogue polishers, who have experience with Japanese period plays. It is a common occurrence in dubbing when dialogue is translated verbatim from a different language, giving the impression that it has been translated. Thus, we were careful to ensure that it felt natural.
A TV show’s greatest quality is that it gives the actors enough time to fully inhabit the role. We simply kept honing until the big moment because they have their own thoughts and suggestions. There are several possible outcomes when translating a screenplay. So many options are available. You can read something so many different ways. Every line contains an abundance of conversation. It is simply tiresome.
As you mentioned, a portion of the work done by the Japanese translators was done expressly to maintain the work’s historical authenticity. Translated not only into Japanese, but also into Japan during the Sengoku era.
Ultimately, we couldn’t understand them if that was how they actually spoke at the time. Thus, it’s a delicate balance that draws from Japanese jidaigeki tradition. Each jidaigeki made their own decisions based on their preference for feeling slightly more classic or a little bit more modern. We chose the traditional approach, I believe. However, we were extremely cautious because we wanted a young Japanese audience to be able to understand and enjoy jidaigeki without feeling stressed out. This audience may not normally watch it.
Regarding Mariko-sama’s interpretation, how would you rate her professional performance? Was her interpretation accurate, or did she overly translate her own emotions?
[Giggles. She is an excellent diplomat, in my opinion. That makes her the most adept diplomatic interpreter. She did get a little too strong in her opinions toward the end, but overall, I think she does a great job interpreting.
How much do you consider the audience when translating, as opposed to just attempting to convey the actor’s words accurately?
Initially, we make an effort to be as near to the writers’ intention as we can, with the utmost respect for the script. The work is full of lovely nuances and a great sense of humor, and the writers are truly talented. However, there are some things that can occasionally be very challenging to translate. They don’t belong in our language or culture naturally. It then turns into a discussion about how to maintain that in the most practical manner. Additionally, the Japanese text is longer—I believe Anna mentioned this during one of her TV appearances. There were quite a few balls in the air.
Could you elaborate on why Japanese texts are longer?
It becomes somewhat drawn out, particularly when you have to be courteous and use the honorific, as in Mariko’s conversation with Toranaga. When expressing gratitude, you should be exceedingly courteous and use these honorifics at the end. It simply lengthens. Even though he was kind of enjoying the process, Justin also wanted to be respectful. I believe Justin realized he could include that in the captions.
You describe yourself as “bilingual and bicultural,” which I adore. Sometimes the cultural barrier can cause more miscommunication than the language barrier, as in the case of honorifics.
Yes, and they’re quite entwined. I prefer to be perceived as bicultural. I am acquainted with various filmmaking techniques. I have never worked on a project where there were no interpreters on the set. That’s kind of my specialty: working on projects that require bridging cultures and languages in order to move things along.
The actors discussed how different they thought the Shōgun set was from Japanese productions in earlier interviews that you interpreted. What aspects of working in Japan differ from working in the West, in your opinion, that an American audience would find surprising?
Yes, quite a few. However, I believe that increasing the involvement of actors in the Shōgun process is one of the key points, as Eita mentioned. All projects are unique, after all. However, I’m aware that every Japanese actor who has only performed in Japanese television has a great appreciation for how much more involved the process is than in most Japanese television.
Japan does not have a union. Consequently, I believe that working conditions can be much harsher. That’s presumably one of the main issues. Additionally, I believe that Hollywood shows have much longer prep and development times. Actors are given additional time to train and get ready for the part. Simply put, there is more time due to increased wealth.
I hope you have some insight into some specific language choices the show made, because I want to talk about them. How did the term “pillow” come to be used as a euphemism for sex? I believe it originated from the book. I believe I’ve heard it called jidaigeki in Japanese.
I believe I have as well. However, it was very adamant about the performance. It struck me that we were just going to use the word “pillow.”.
It’s an effective euphemism.
And although we had a brief conversation about it, one of Eita’s small poetic flourishes came out as “trying to fuck a sunset.”. And I’ve been told that nothing with the connotation of “fuck” is actually a swear word for sex in Japanese. Indeed.
What, therefore, was being said there that made you feel like “fuck” and required subtitles?
Not even “make love to,” he merely says. To grasp tightly is the Japanese euphemism for having sex. It literally means “to give a hug.”. Hence, it’s not quite as challenging as English.
It’s interesting that the Japanese language doesn’t necessarily have a word for that kind of boundary-pushing activity. It was undoubtedly very difficult for the translators. Apart from Blackthorne, who is the most profanity-prone character in our show?
Looking at it in translation, it appears to be by Yabushige.
He does, indeed.
And what term is being used on the show when people talk about fate? What idea is that?
The term shukumei is most often used. That suggests fate, in essence. Something more akin to fate is another term, unmei. Because it’s a little bit lighter, unmei is used in a few lines. Shukumei has a bit more nuance in terms of detail. For this show, the idea of Shukumei is crucial. We employ it, in my opinion, very sparingly and appropriately.
According to the official glossary of the show—which is really awesome that you have—shukumei has ties to Buddhism. The fact that even the show’s converts continue to subscribe to that idea is intriguing.
It is a component of Shintoism as well. There is a lot of Buddhism and Shinto. They are entwined with politics quite nicely. Temples held great authority and had special connections to lords. Though at this point it may take on a life of its own, I believe it to be a Buddhist concept.
When the translation process was particularly intricate—that is, when you realized that it was going to take some time to figure out—can you recall a particular instance?
Numerous. However, as they say, you tend to forget the difficult things. One somewhat intriguing—and perhaps controversial—example, in my opinion, would be Ochiba’s statement at the conclusion of episode four. She is with Ishido when she says, “Get things moving,” in a very Ochiba-esque passive-aggressive manner. Furthermore, the subtitle concludes, “I will be the council’s boss.”. Or something similar. It felt like she turned into a Disney villain or something, but I believe the original Japanese translation of that line was pretty much exactly what we had. Not only did it seem a little strange coming from an Ochiba, but a Japanese woman of that caliber would never say that. Really, that’s what she intends to say and what she is actually saying. She refused to say that, though. She is stating, “Let’s hear what they have to say,” in Japanese. “.
What she means is that the council will answer to me, which will be immediately clear to Japanese audiences who are so accustomed to these kinds of jidaigeki. However, I believe the subtitle should have been more direct. That was one of the harder decisions we had to make. At a smaller scale, there are numerous lines that require careful consideration and modification. However, I felt that was a really fascinating illustration of how different it can be.
Have you seen the memes where the joke is that Mariko is reading a bit asymmetrically, translating, for example, a whole essay that Blackthorne says, but only a sentence?
Indeed, there is a lot of lost in translation. Do you recall the scene where Bill Murray is being told a lot by the commercial director and the interpreter says, “More intensity”?
Yes, I do. I take it you contributed to Lost in Translation?
Yes, but during prep as a PA.
I will say that I have appreciated your conciseness when you have been translating for me. Yes, I yammer.
While you’re speaking, your mind is working. In addition, I believe that interpreters can also be diplomats. Hiring and assigning interpreters to work on sets is something I do frequently. In addition to their interpreting skills, they should also be competent diplomats with the ability to mediate disputes when necessary in order to get things done. Either way, it’s a requirement of the job.
The length and clarity of this interview have been adjusted.
